FIRSTS Conversation with the First Female and African-American Librarian of Congress

JR: Alright, welcome to First Conversations, which is our podcast and speaker series that puts a spotlight on barrier breakers, glass ceiling smashers, and innovators who have helped shape modern life. Each of our guests is a trailblazer who cleared a path for others, and you get to hear a little more about what it took for them to get there. So, as you know, I'm Jessica Rosenworcel, the Chairwoman of the Federal Communications Commission, and today's guest immediately goes into the First Conversation Hall of Fame because she has broken down not one but two historic barriers. I'm talking about the 14th Librarian of Congress, Dr. Carla Hayden.

She's not only the first woman to serve in this position, she's also the first African American to lead our National Library, and Dr. Hayden came remarkably close to getting a FIRSTS triple crown. She is only the second professional librarian in history to serve in this position, in fact, the only other librarian, we looked it up, was back in 1974. So, Dr. Hayden deserves recognition for being the first professionally credentialed librarian of Congress in half a century.

And during her career as a librarian, she held many notable jobs. You were the CEO of the Enoch Pratt Free Library in Baltimore, the Chief Librarian of the Chicago Public Library, and the President of the American Library Association. So, you've been a nationally recognized leader in library science for decades. Now, I love this fact. In one of her earliest jobs, Dr. Hayden filed Library of Congress card sets in the card catalog. So, as Drake would say, she started from the bottom, but now she's here.

So, thank you, Dr. Hayden, for joining me today. It is really great to have you.

CH: I have to just say, there was one other. So, I'm actually the third with library experience.

JR: So, a librarian is correcting my research. Would you look at that?

CH: So, of course. And it's smart. And the other two were both heads of public library systems, Boston Public and Cleveland Public. So interesting that the three that had library experience were all public librarians. I think that says something, too.

JR: Alright. So, you are, however, one of the first women in this role.

CH: The first woman.

JR: Yeah. And I know one other thing that we have in common, besides being first women in these roles, is we both have musicians in our family.

CH: And look at us.

JR: Yeah, I know. Look what happened to us.

CH: In my case, I was the child of two classically trained musicians. And by the time I was 12, we all decided that I didn't have the talent that they had. And it's obvious when you grow up with people, as you know, that musical talent, you know.

JR: My brother got it all. I got none.

CH: And I definitely am here as a librarian. But what they did notice was that while they were practicing and they could read notes and hear music, I loved books and reading. And I'd be under the piano while they're practicing. And I could look at text and hear voices or read. So, text for me was what notes were for them.

JR: Wow. Alright. So, you almost answered this question, but you didn't get your Ph.D. in Library Science

CH: Yes

JR: At the University of Chicago. So, beyond those early experiences, what led you to believe that was the right career path?

CH: Well, after undergrad, and I graduated political science, history, and I thought I was thinking about what am I going to do? Can I go to law school? What am I going to do? And my dear mother said, ‘While you're thinking, maybe you should get employment.’

JR: A lot of us have had those conversations with parents.

CH: And so, I started going and applying for jobs. And they would say, ‘Oh, you know, your grades are good. You seem nice, but you have no experience.’ That's why I always encourage younger people to do internships. Do what you can while you're in school, because it does help when you get out. And while I was going between job interviews, I went to my favorite place at the time and always, the Chicago Public Library. And there was one of my colleagues who had just graduated and saw me there and said, 'Hey, Carla, you're here for those library jobs? They're hiring anybody.'

[LAUGHTER]

And we still do that, though. That's a way to introduce you to the profession of librarianship with a position called library associates, people with undergraduate degrees. And then they assign you, and they assigned me to Storefront Library, southside of Chicago. And I was assigned to a young lady who was going to graduate library school. And she was also in jeans and having story time for children with autism. And that's when I said, 'Oh, this is something I didn't know about in terms of profession.' And I was hooked.

JR: Oh, I love that. I love how serendipity always plays a role.

CH: Yeah.

JR: So, I know that you, as I mentioned at the start, were the head of the American
Library Association. I admit to being a big fan. But when I was looking back on your tenure, it seemed that while you were president, Ms. Magazine said you were one of their women of the year.

CH: With Selma Hayek that year. I mean, think about it. Think about it. It was something. And they'd never had a librarian. But it was after 9-11 and then the Patriot Act. And there was a lot of concern in the library community about section that dealt with records and the government's ability to look at records without telling the person that you're looking at, and library records. So, I was head of the library association when we really expressed our concern.

JR: Well, that's an interesting historical moment.

CH: It was. It was because you had John Ashcroft. You had all of these people that were wondering, what are these librarians getting worked up about? You know, and we have that reputation of not getting worked up about much. But we were concerned that interest in a subject might be confused with intent to do something. And that is the difference.

JR: So, you're looking at the documents.

CH: Especially at a time when so many people were just trying to search for information because they hadn't heard some of the terms. Jihad or anything. They didn't know. So, the public was looking for information. And that interest versus intent was what we were concerned about.

JR: That's a really interesting historical juncture.

CH: It was. It was.

JR: So, before we move on to what you do today, one more piece of history I want you to tell us about. Because apparently. Apparently during your time as the chief librarian of the Chicago Public Library, you met a young law professor and his wife. Namely, Barack and Michelle Obama. So, you're going to have to tell all the details right now.

CH: Well, actually it was the wife first. Because at that time, Michelle Obama Robinson was working a Deputy Mayor position at Chicago. And one of her portfolio agencies was the Chicago Public Library. And so, I came from back from the University of Pittsburgh. I was teaching, and I went back to Chicago Public. And that's when I met, well, she was my boss, basically, that. And then, you know, we heard about this fellow that she was engaged to.

JR: And you're like, 'I got to go meet him.'

CH: You know, she was my boss.

JR: Right, right.

CH: But then I left. Right. As they were getting married and I didn't get to go to the wedding, but I sent towels, you know, but imagine years later being interviewed by this person who knew about years ago. And here we're sitting and he's interviewing and saying, 'What can you do to open up the Library of Congress?'

JR: Wow!

CH: And that was really something. Because that's what it was all about, opening up this treasure chest, as we call it.

JR: So, we're walking through a lot of history. So, let's bring ourselves right up to the present. For people who don't know, what are the primary duties of the Librarian of Congress?

CH: It's an administrative position. You administer not only the world's largest library collection, 178 million items and in all formats, collecting in 470 languages. The papers of 23 Presidents from Washington to Coolidge. And then the division starts with the Presidential Libraries in NARA, administrating and aiding the U.S. copyright system.

JR: That’s a fulltime job

CH: That and We have a wonderful registrar of copyright, Shira Perlmutter. And, the still the main focus, we still are the Library of Congress. So, there's the Congressional Library. There's the Congressional Research Service. And those are the policy experts, embedded librarians, my favorite term. So, they have these knowledge groups that serve Congress. So, you have experts in all fields in policy. And then you have librarians who are also assisting the Library for the Blind and Print Disabled. So, it's quite an enterprise.

JR: Yeah. So, in previous interviews, and I love this, you stated that ‘Librarians are caretakers of history, artifacts, and culture.’ So, what does that look like for you on a day-to-day basis?

CH: It's a constant surprise in terms of what collections are being brought into the library. What discoveries are still being found. The library was founded in 1800 and there's still think of generations of curators who are coming in and saying, ‘Oh, my goodness, I'm pulling down a file, and it's the photographs that Diane Arbus took for a special’—I know, Diane Arbus—'for the Social Security Administration,’  and the contents of Abraham Lincoln's pockets the night he was assassinated, and all of these things. Hair. H-A-I-R.

JR: Okay.

CH: We have hair. Four locks of Thomas Jefferson's, one lock of Beethoven that's been authenticated. We're going to do an exhibit on hair because we have the manuscript for the musical, and just music, Leonard Bernstein's collection, Stephen Sondheim.

JR: So, what are some of your like current exhibits that you have?

CH: Well, we just opened, for the first time, a permanent treasures gallery. So, for instance, now everyone can see the contents of Abraham Lincoln's pockets the night he was assassinated. They can see Maya Lin's submission for the Vietnam Memorial, the actual thing. You can see all of these wonderful things, and we'll be able to rotate the treasures, depending on what's going on. We're gearing up for America 250, and that's going to be something. We also have an exhibit about our photography collection. So, you can see the first selfie. We have the largest collection, and it does get fun to say the largest collection of comic books. So, we have Spider-Man on display. And all these wonderful things we'll be able to show. So, we just opened a couple of weeks ago.

JR: So, what are some of your favorite exhibits since you took over the library?

CH: Oh, my goodness. Well, one was the Rosa Parks exhibit.

JR: Oh, I saw that one too!

CH: And that was one where we were able to, and we're doing more partnering with other institutions. So, for instance, she was a seamstress as well in the African American Museum, loaned one of her dresses to have their too. And so, we had our papers and everything, but it was just, it just

JR: When I saw her combined with the photography.

CH: The photography, her own handwriting talking about being a 10-year-old and getting angry and wanting to hit this little boy who called her a bad name. And her grandmother saying, you need to channel that as she started. And then seeing a Polaroid of her doing yoga poses. You don't think of Rosa Parks in yoga. But she did because she had digestive problems. She was a vegetarian because of all the stress And her using her seamstress skills to be part of organizing one of the AIDS quilts and a panel when she was in Detroit.

JR: Alright. So, one thing at the Library of Congress that's always intrigued me is that you manage the National Recording Registry.

CH: That is a lot of fun.

JR: Yeah. So, if you don't know what that is, what I'm talking about is every single year, you take 25 music titles that you believe are culturally significant and you add them to the National Registry. But to give you a sense of what that means and the kind of mix of genres that gets added, this year featured recordings from Gene Autry, Notorious B.I.G. and ABBA. All right. It's pretty diverse. I mean, you said you came from a family of musicians, but that's pretty diverse. So, I'd like to know, what is the process for choosing those titles?

CH: Well, the National Recording Registry is for recorded sound. So, it also can include . .

JR: A speech.

CH: A speech. Henry Hank Aaron's historic home run. And hearing that, the 9-11, getting back to that, the one station that was operating that was able to, they had to actually get up and put an antenna up. And they were recording. So, you get recorded sound of all types and also . . .

JR: Music.

CH: Music. Yeah. And the irony for me is here's a non-musical person, certified non-musical, but being part of that, it's a lot of fun. And so, what we've been trying to do, it's been at least 20 years .It was an act of Congress because the thought was you really need to start preserving these things. We also do film. So, 25 films are also  another registry, the film registry. So, you're looking at, you know, they have to be at least 10 years old, the recording. And hip-hop, for instance, that was a seminal album. Biggie.

JR: Yeah.

CH: But also, Gene Archery.

JR: Of course. It’s part of history.
CH: Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. Why wasn't that on there? So, there's a board, a recording advisory. It's a recording advisory board made up with industry executives, artists themselves, and they make recommendations with the library staff. And then I get to look at those. And then you have to pick.

JR: You got any favorites?

CH: Well, this year it was Johnny Mathis. Chances are, because growing up, that was my mom's one of her and her friends . . .

JR: They thought he was so, so dreamy.

JR: He was so dreamy, right?

CH: And I heard that song over and over and over and over. So that was a key-on to her.

JR: So, in my position here, I get to see all the time how libraries in urban, rural, and tribal communities are really potent tools in our effort to fight the digital divide. It goes right to the heart of this agency's mission. You can go getting communications to everyone and bringing it to libraries, these palaces for the people has transformed not just the libraries, but the communities they serve. So, I'd love to know if you see that, too. What you think about libraries?

CH: I have to jump in because that's one of our values. We know that we are the conduit for so many people. I'm glad you mentioned rural areas and tribal libraries because people think of digital divide, and they think of urban areas. But it's very important to know that in those rural areas, there are difficulties with connectivity and access, and how they get them. So, the rural libraries. And it happened during the pandemic recently when so many people had to get online to do virtual learning and all of these things. Libraries were closed physically. And so, they got very inventive. They used their mobile units. Those bookmobiles were going out, providing Wi-Fi. They were pulling up into areas so that people could connect. And they also would put antennas on their branches so that people could get access. So, for so many people, the library was it. And when you think about e-government and people having to apply for certain things, where are they going to have the time to have two or three hours with a screen with someone that can help them fill out the application? We saw that in Baltimore with Section 8 housing. You had 10 days, and it was all online. And the library system, we knew we had to train our staff. We had to be ready. And have dedicated computers there. And sure enough, 10 o'clock when it was time, people were coming in to fill out those applications.

JR: Yeah. Libraries have done a lot of revolutionary work.

CH: Oh, my goodness.

JR: When it comes to adapting to the digital age and committing to the idea that everyone needs Internet access.

CH: And you can now, it's beyond books, so you can check out laptops. You can check out hotspots. All of that.

JR: You know, yesterday, I shared with my colleagues here a proposal to make sure every library in this country has hotspots for loan.

CH: Thank you!

JR: Yeah!

CH: It's important. I can't emphasize enough - these are opportunity centers and they're trusted sources, plus when people check out a hotspot from a library, they get a person to help them with it, too, and they can bring it back. So, thank you for that.

JR: Yeah! Alright. So, I know you also talk a lot about accessibility. Making all these treasures in the library available to everyone in different formats. So, I want you to talk a little bit about that initiative and, you know, how the American people can really do something with the knowledge that these artifacts provide.

CH: We have, well, our website is our actual digital front door. So, we've been digitizing and making available Rosa Parks' peanut butter pancake recipe is up there in her own hand. Those papers of 23 Presidents have been scanned and digitized. We're digitizing things that are unique to the library. Not the best sellers or things like that.

JR: Right.

CH: That you check out from your public library, but the things that you would have had to go to the Library of Congress in D.C. to see. And what we're hoping, and we started one program, we have some innovators in residence to help us really look at how the digital collections can be used by people. And he started something called Citizen DJ. So, you know those recordings and some of the things that are on there and some of the other things that we have, You can now, and this is where I have to show my technological, sort of like my music thing. I can only go so far with how this works. You can upload and pull and mix your own things using the library's sound. So, we want people to create, do research, look up things.

JR: And to build.

CH: Yeah. And we have, speaking of Library Association and librarians, we have t-shirts and bags that say 'Librarians: the original search engines.' Because we want it.

JR: It's a really good one.

CH: Yeah. We got cups too.

JR: Yeah. So, you mentioned this at the start when you talked about why you were featured as Woman of the Year by Miss Magazine. But you've long been an advocate for the privacy of library users.

CH: Right.

JR: So, talk a little bit more about that and what that even means today.

CH: And today, there’re discussions about young people having access to certain books or certain materials. That's when young people need to be able to have a trusted source, a way to get information because it's a fraught time. And they might not be able to talk to their caregivers or parents or whatever. They need to have they need to see their experiences reflected. And so, to have the privacy to be able to do that is important for all, including young people. Parents, of course, and caregivers have the right to restrict what their own young people see.

JR: But restricting what's in the library is a different . . .

CH: Because other people can say, 'I'd like my child to read this.'

JR: Sure. So, today, you know, I think about physical printed books. When I imagine a library. But, of course, there's a world with Audible, eBooks, Libby, AI. So, what does that all mean for the future of libraries?

CH: Well, first thing it means is you don't have fines.

JR: So, I was going to ask.

CH: Oh, yeah.

JR: Have you ever gone to the library?

JR: Well, yes. My favorite book, Bright April, P.S. 96, Jamaica, Queens. I checked it out. It was the first time I saw myself in a book. I was 7, 8. I love books. Books told me the world. But somebody put this book in my hand. And she was a little brown girl with pigtails. She was a brownie. I was a brownie. They had a piano in the living room. All that. I loved that book. I checked it out so much. And that's when my mom, we got the fines. And I had to work it off. But now, libraries have realized that there can be a barrier.

JR: Yes.

CH: And they get, you know, they don't have fines anymore.

JR: So, in an era of social media, there's so much that's been written about how the Internet's rewiring our brains and making deep thinking more difficult. I think about that not just professionally but as a parent. So, I'm wondering how you advocate for the importance of literacy and books in the digital age.

CH: And not just books in the traditional sense. It's okay if you're looking at an eBook. It's okay if you're listening to a book. Because people have reading differences, so however you can get the enjoyment. Graphic novels are very big. Because they're like comic books and things like that. So, for some readers, they're more visual learners and things. So, not to be judgmental. But to realize that you're reading text. You're absorbing. And to be open to how people can receive information.

JR: So, there's nothing else I wanted to ask you about. You know, as glorious as the FCC building is.

CH: It was pretty impressive.

JR: It's very impressive. We're modern here.

CH: Very modern.

JR: But if you want to go to the grandest space in Washington, you can make an argument, it's not even the Capitol or the Houses of Congress.

CH: The Thomas Jefferson Building.

JR: Exactly. The Library of Congress's main reading room. So, why don't you make the case for why that's correct?

CH: It is correct because. . . Well, it was built in . . . completed in 1897. It was the first federal building to have electricity. And so, when you go in, you not only see the grandeur of the building because it was modeled on an Italian palace. To show that in this country,

JR: As was this room.

[LAUGHTER]

CH: To show, well, this is kind of Ferrari-type looking. So, this is kind of cool. But to show that in this country, we build palaces to knowledge. And not the monarchy. So, so many people within the marble and the statuary. And all of that. And there's quotes about wisdom. And they did outgrow that building. So, there's another building behind it--The Adams Building. Right next to the newly reopened Folger Shakespeare. So, they look the same.

JR: Oh, I thought that just reopened.

CH: Gorgeous. We're a little jealous. And then they outgrew that. And they built the Madison Building, a 1980. So, you have three. But the front door, the physical front door, is that magnificent structure because they outgrew. Imagine this: they needed all of those books were in the Capitol. Lining the halls. And they realized that they needed a separate building. And that's when the separation came. And as I'm reminded often, on budget, and on time.

JR: So, the contents of the original Library of Congress were actually previously like on bookcases. In the halls of the Capitol.

CH: Yes. Or on the floor. There are renderings of that. And that's when they knew. Because in 1870, it really. . . the library's collections really grew because that's when they had the administration of the copyright system.

JR: Right.

CH: And the deposit things. So, that's when the collection really exploded.

JR: Wow. That's an extraordinary piece of history,

CH: Oh, it is. It was at the Smithsonian, which we remind them.

JR: Yeah.

CH: There's a friendly . . . I was just with Colleen Shogan. Dr. Shogan, Who's the first woman to be archivist of the United States. And my other colleague, Dr. Lonnie Bunch. Who's the 14th secretary of the Smithsonian. We call ourselves the gang of three now in Washington. You know.

JR: Well, it sounds dangerous.

CH: Well, we are cooperating, and we are doing things together. And it's really cool.

JR: Alright. You got any other library finds you want to own up to? 
CH: No.

JR: No?

[LAUGHTER]

CH: No. No. Return some things.

JR: Alright, alright. So, this is the first conversation series. So, we have this quick sort of lightning round we do at the end of these dialogues. It starts pretty mundane. So, keeping with the theme of firsts: what's the first thing you do in the morning?

CH: Coffee.

JR: Oh. I am with you.

CH: Coffee. Well, mocha.

JR: First concert.

CH: My parents. And my mom reminds me of when they took me to one performance. And they had me sitting there with someone that, you know, has to take the child. I was playing with my stuff. And the lady said. ‘Okay, the performers are coming out now.’ And I looked up. I said, ‘That's just Colleen and Brucie.’ And I went back. I was about three. I was like. ‘Oh. Alright.’

JR: Alright. So, what's the first bit of advice you'd give to someone on the first day of their first job?

CH: Well, just realize that this is an opportunity. They're going to be some strange things, or you might have insecurities and things like that. But to be open to the possibilities and go home every night and talk to your friends or your family, your support group, and just stick with it.

JR: Yeah, and persistence.

CH: Yeah, but have that support group, people that don't know anything really about what you're doing, and you can just talk about people, and you can talk about things, and you can get it out. And realize that there is that but then there is your real life too.

JR: This speaker series really celebrates those who paved the way for others, who have you know smashed some barriers. But when we do that, we all know there are people that helped us along the way.
CH: Oh my!
JR: I think it’s very important to call those folks out. So, are there any individuals who are mentors or sponsors who really influenced your life's work?

CH: I've had so many, and I have to think of Annie Lee Carol who was a children’s librarian who when I finished school, and she was the children’s librarian at a regional library and was just so dedicated to all types of children and their parents. He husband was a judge. She could do anything and didn’t have to work or do anything, but she was so dedicated. One of the things she always said was ‘We have to keep this place looking good because for some of the children this is the tidiest place they're going to see.’ And so, she would bring in fresh flowers; she would do all kinds of things and make it just really wonderful.

JR: That's terrific to someone influence you like that and who cares so deeply for what they do. So, yeah before we go, I want you to mention you know all the things online and on social media where folks can follow you to keep up with you.

CH: I have followers.

JR: Yeah?

CH: I'm the first librarian to well, it’s tweeting.  Yeah, once I got off the, you know, being sworn, I got sworn in because I nervous but I stepped down and God that's when I started doing social media saying I'm going on an adventure come with me and so I post different things and it's . . .

JR: Okay so you got to say what your handles are on what platform so people can look it up.

CH: Librarian at LOC.gov not sure about the handle but you just put it in. I'm on several platforms I understand. Well full disclosure I discuss a lot and do it but I'm not touching many buttons.

JR: Alright, alright . . .

CH: But I have young people especially that work with me one that’s how we got the performer Lizzo to come. I know; it was the young people in the music department and our social media person who said we’re going to tag her and said, ‘Yes, let’s do that. We’re going to tag her,’ and she responded back. And then she spent three hours in our Music Vault.

JR: And so maybe in ten years hence in the National Registry?

CH: Oh yeah! We have the crystal flute she played in the Treasures Gallery now.

JR: And she is a classically trained musician.

CH: Classically trained, and her mother was with her and everything and said, ‘Boy, all those lessons paid off.’

[LAUGHTER]

But she spent 3 hours in the vault. People don’t know the reason that we did that is because we have the largest collection of a single instrument in the world—flute— and that was the connection. It was like a master class in playing that with the curator. She picked up a piccolo that had been played the first Stars and Stripes Forever we have the collection of John Philip Susan, and she was able to figure it out because she's classically trained, she was able to say okay. D and all that. So, it. was wonderful to see and then when we watched who's. doing what on our web site afterwards, we saw a spike in terms of what else does the. Library of Congress have, and that's what the whole power of social media is for us.

JR: And also making you relevant.

CH: Oh, my goodness, yes! That's one of our main ways to reach people—digitally.

JR: Oh, I love that anecdote, ending. on. it. Which is like the history of someone looking at a Piccolo that they, you know, played the stars and stripes on.

CH: And see the manuscript.

JR: Alright, that's the power of the Library of Congress. So, thank you so much for joining us.

CH: Thank you.

JR: We appreciate your time here today.

CH: Thank you so much.

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