FIRSTS Conversation with the Creator of Craigslist

JR: Welcome to “First Conversations,” which is our podcast/speaker series that puts a spotlight on barrier breakers, glass ceiling smashers, and innovators who have helped shape modern life.
Each of our guess is a trailblazer who cleared a path for others, and you get to hear more about what it took to get there.  I am Jessica Rosenworcel, chairwoman of the Federal Communications Commission. If you have tried to buy or sell furniture, electronics, or concert tickets, you are probably already familiar with our guest today. I'm talking about Internet pioneer Craig Newmark, and yes, he is that Craig.  He is the founder of Craigslist, one of the Internet's most iconic early websites and one of our digital economy's most vibrant marketplaces, even today. Craig is also one of the world's leading philanthropists.  In 2015 he created Newmark Philanthropies, and the Chronicle of Philanthropy recognized him as one of America's 25 most generous donors.  If you are not already impressed enough with those credentials, I want to throw one more at you. He has been on the cover of “Costco Connection Magazine.”

[LAUGHTER]

We love connections at the FCC.  I couldn't resist. Thank you, Craig Newmark, for joining me today. It's great to have you.

CN: I love their hotdogs.

[LAUGHTER]

JR: How did a self-proclaimed hotdog fanatic and nerd from New Jersey wind up in San Francisco at the dawn of the Internet Age?

CN: Pretty much I stumbled over there, which is my normal pattern in recent times.  Basically, I spent 17 years at IBM, which was largely a mistake.  As they were having increasing difficulties in the early 1990's, I decided I should try something new.  I talked to Charles Schwab and Company.  They made me a nice job offer and move me across the country.  My timing was good. Yeah, and they made me a decent offer.  I spent there, let's say a couple years, until they had some issues.  My timing was accidentally perfect in that was the beginning of the dot-com bubble in the Silicon Valley area.  So, I couldn't have been luckier. My deal is that any success I may have had was by accident—me being in the right time and place, which makes me the Forrest Gump of the Internet.

JR: I'm sure you have told this story a million times, but why don't you give us the quick version of how Craigslist came to be?

CN: Basically, maybe a year and a half in, I realized how many people had helped me out via the nascent Internet, telling me about neighborhoods, places to live, food.  I figured I should give back.  I started a mailing list, including arts and technology events.  People suggested stuff, and I tried to make it make sense.  The thing just started growing by word-of-mouth.  As things started happening, I responded to whatever made sense. Having categories like jobs and apartments and kept plugging away.  There were a couple of big decisions I made; kind of resulted in what you see today.

JR: Alright, so in developing Craigslist, I think back on the image we have of early Internet founders.  I think you have strayed from that path in a few ways.  For instance, most early Internet founders cling to their title of CEO.  They stay on as the company gets larger and bigger and better known.  After you incorporated Craigslist as a private company, you actually stepped aside and named someone else CEO rather quickly.  Tell me about that.

CN: Well, what happened, I think it was through 1999, the second of the two big decisions.  I started to realize that maybe as a manager I suck.

[LAUGHTER]

And people helped me gently understand that was the case.  Already, I had hired this guy, Jim Buckmaster. I stepped aside and became a full-time customer-service rep. To be clear, as manager I suck.  I was a Great customer-service rep.  Since there has been confusion, I did not at any point become a lead customer service rep or management, I became a frontline customer service rep.  When I turned things over to Jim, I gave up all management responsibility or even serious influence, because that was, I felt, required. I would not at any point Bigfoot him. That was hard to do in a way, but that it turned out to be the right decision.  Frankly, I have been retired from Craigslist for five years as I become a pretty serious full-time philanthropist.

JR: So, from CEO to customer service rep is not the normal path.  And another way that you and Craigslist have strayed from a lot of what we see at Internet companies is by and large you have the same user interface that you did in the 1990's.  I went and just checked it before coming down here.  Tell me why you think that design, which is simple, works so well, and what does that mean about all kinds of design we see online today.

CN: Well, I think in a 1996, I'm not really certain, I realized I could take emails that were coming in, and I was sending them out more or less by hand, I could take as emails, write code, and turn them into instant web publishing.  Those emails follow a predictable format, and I could write some code to turn them into webpages.  That worked. And what's more, beyond that, I could create a homepage page dedicated to those few categories, and I realized that I don't know design.  But I know how to keep things simple and fast and started things that way in 1996.  And then Jim maintained that design architecture.  Over the decades, I talked to people, and what people want is simple, fast, and useful. So, Jim has resisted the urge to change the way things look.  In terms of the architecture, things have changed a lot, because keeping things fast is a really good design principle. And so, the site has stayed really fast.  I do know substantial number of people would like to see design improvements, but those are always people who do design.

[LAUGHTER]

And I do like good design now and then of different things. But people say keep it simple, fast, and useful.

JR: That makes sense. CEO, customer service rep, simple design enthusiast. And now I want to know what is your most memorable transaction on Craigslist.  Were you buyer or seller, and what was it?

CN: The only thing I can think of is I sold my car way back, an old Saturn, if anyone remembers that, and that turned out to be relatively smooth.  But Mrs. Newmark does the buying and selling.  I have delegated all of that to her.  The funniest ad -- what I remember is somebody put an ad out, they wanted to hire someone else to take the CPA ethics test for them.

[LAUGHTER]

And we think that was for real, but we will never really know.

JR: But that wasn't you or Mrs. Newmark?

CN: No, I think that was prior to Mrs. Newmark.

JR: So, let's shift a little bit to your more recent philanthropic work.  One of your big focuses has been promoting trustworthy journalism. Let's talk a little bit about the digital media age and why you made that such an early priority.

CN: In high school History and Civics, our teacher taught us things like a trustworthy press is the only system of democracy.  We needed newspapers and someone who spoke truth to power, who fact-checked, and who prevented things in a democracy from going badly wrong.  So, I made some really big contributions, and then got out of the way of people, hoping that things were going to work out.  Like, two of the best contributions I have made have been to the markup.

Their deal is agenda-driven journalism, which worked out really well.  And more importantly, there is CUNY journalism, City University of New York.  That is working out really well.  The deal at CUNY in general is they are responsible in New York for getting people who grew up with no money, like myself, they became serious journalists, or worked in other fields, and became middle-class.  And our country in large part is about people moving from positions of no money into the middle class or better.  That is my own life story. That is why I like helping CUNY out in a big way.

JR: So,  when you look at that new media landscape, what is it that makes you most optimistic and enthusiastic?  Maybe it is those students you are seeing.  What is it that leads you to have the greatest concern?

CN: I may not have as much enthusiasm or optimism in an area that I would like to, because we need more news institutions who will speak truth to power, who will demand answers, and who believe in things like fact checking.  So, there are people who do that kind of thing.  I struggled to maintain my optimism, and I guess in lieu of optimism, there is always comedy.

JR: Outside of journalism, you have done a lot to promote women in technology, an issue near and dear to my heart.  You have been on the board of groups like Girls Who Code.
Why do you think diversity and gender diversity in technology so important?

CN: One is that diversity is a strength.  You need to get people from everywhere so that you can get the most effective people doing anything.  And it is a matter of paying attention to the notion that you want to treat people like you want to be treated.  So, that's about fairness.  My deal is that in retrospect, and I've only figure this out 10 years ago, my moral compass was set at Sunday school by Mr. and Mrs. Levin.  They taught me to treat people like you want to be treated.  They pointed out this ninth commandment thing, which prohibits false witness, which means fact-checking and speaking truth to power.  They also told me to know when enough is enough.  That is the reason Craigslist is monetized minimally, which is a big decision I made when I made Craigslist into a company in 1999.  The deal that doing well by doing good is a viable business model has worked out far beyond what I thought it would.  That is why I am giving away a lot of money.  This is not altruistic.  This is us following through with what I learned in—well, that was my first year of Hebrew school.  Recently to give special credit, I always wonder whether Mr. Levin had a broken finger.  The people in Lower Manhattan actually found his daughter and grandchildren.  The story in brief is that normally you don't recommend jumping out of a moving train.  But if the train is taking you to a death camp, it may come recommended.  And that may be followed by lots of fighting, running, and rescuing your wife and daughter from different places.  But that story kind of cemented the influence in my head.  I met the grandsons in my industry.

JR: One of the more recent focuses of your philanthropic work is a cybersecurity.  It's an issue that touches on everything we do here at the federal committee cage and commission.  I'm wondering how you think of cybersecurity, what do you think are the biggest challenges, and what kind of solutions do you think we need to invest in right now is a country?

CN: Cybersecurity is about us protecting our homes and families and country.  We are in this together, and we need to adopt that attitude like in World War II, everyone was expected to play their part.  The challenge is to build campaigns, like in World War II, to get everyone working together on this that requires efforts to show that these are not as complicated or technical as people make it sound. And that means a lot of thinking and PR and marketing. And I am a nerd, those are the opposite of my strengths.  But it will include things like picking up the CISA campaign, the Shields Up thing, and expanding on that. For example, they push passwords in a big way.  Well, I've started talking to people about setting the movement to pass keys along those lines.

JR: Explain that a little bit more.

CN: The deal is passkeys are just a way—usually on your phone—that makes for automated login.  The use of passwords or anything else that you could be tricked into revealing.  So, the idea is your phone right now is potentially a very secure device.  Phones have secure volts built into them.  The idea is you use those, and unlock them with biometrics, your fingerprint or maybe face, or something else, and then your phone can cooperate with the website saying, hey, you are who you say you are. And, in advanced forms, one site, one password repository, pass key repository, say, at Google, could connect to an Apple site saying we verified this is for real.  The two servers can communicate securely because they can use public encryption, and the intent. Passwords are a thing of the past.  You can't be tricked into revealing something that you don't use anymore.  And that means no more phishing.  This makes ransomware and that kind of thing much harder.  So, the deal is passkey acceleration is something I've started talking about with the big people, and I hope to accelerate it in a big way, and I don't know what that would be, but that is a potentially big part of Shields Up.

JR: So, pass key acceleration, a public relations campaign making clear that cybersecurity matters for all of us, and we are all in this together.  Anything else you want to draw attention to?

CN: Well, that's a big issue right there.

JR: You bet.

CN: I realize I am the wrong guy to do this.  I am a nerd, 1950's style.

JR: What does 1950's style nerd mean?  I want to distinguish from the other decades.

CN: In the 1950's and 1960's, I grew up using a plastic pocket protector.  I did in fact wear thick black glasses taped together.  Marginal social skills.  And I want to take credit for inventing the cliché as nerd patient zero. So, I am the wrong person to do that, but I can rely on people who not only have social skills, but advanced communications and campaign skills. Because the idea
like Batman says, I'm probably not the nerd you want, but I am the nerd you got.

[LAUGHTER]

And so, this is what I am doing. I'm meeting with people in this town this week who can help out, because again, I am in way over my head and can talk to people who can help.  You said something about how am I extending this to other areas.  Well, for reasons which are very long story, I'm trying to stand up for the people who protected our country, sometimes going overseas and risk taking a bullet to protect me, recognizing that their families give up a lot to support their active service members, which is to say I am supporting both military families and veterans in multiple ways.  The big reason is that we owe them in a big way.  But also, people help me understand that military families are beginning to think they are not as well supported as they should be, and they have lost some of their enthusiasm for recommending careers in the military to their kids or others, which is to say we have a national security problem. There is a problem with force retention and force recruitment.  So, I am working with folks like Blue Star Families, for that matter also the Bob Woodruff Foundation, and have spoken with people at DoD who freely admit the problem that we have.  Cybersecurity is a national security problem.  But also, better support for military families, because military families sometimes have to decide between food and housing, in part because they are moved around so much. One can suggest, let's say to the Joint Chiefs, move them around less, or at least give them advanced warning.  What I can do with Blue Star families to create chapters across the country which will smooth the path if a family is moved to another area, if there was a bunch of military families, who can help with things like schools and food and housing. Well, that ain't bad.  The challenge for me is that I don't know if I am helping them move fast enough.  I have written big checks, and I've committed a lot more.  How do you make this happen a lot faster for families, for vets, and then cybersecurity?  Tomorrow there is a big meeting on funding for cyber.  Oh, I'll be there.

[LAUGHTER]

JR: Well, meetings in Washington are often very short.  They don't go on for long.

CN: The deal is that will be exciting because I have another chance to beg forgiveness with the same individual—well, I've started philanthropic funding in a big way asking forgiveness, and I figured I would start with asking for forgiveness from someone named Mayorkas.  But I am already pretty highly involved with CISA and other groups.

JR: So, what we have here is seeing the ability for the Internet to bring together people and community, recognizing investment in journalism is important for the community and democracy, diversity and technology, cybersecurity and strengthening the veteran's community and the service community and the people who support them and their families.  Is that a fair  summation of your priorities?

CN: Yeah.  There is a lot of things going on, and I will indulge myself personally little bit.  I have a sense of humor, so when I talk about pigeon rescue, I'm actually serious.  I have even indulged in pigeon-related photo ops.  I do love birds for reasons unknown.  I'm just hoping that when we come back to New York, Ghostface Killer, the pigeon, will see that we have come back.
He runs our yard with an iron beak.  We are concerned that his fourth wife seems to have disappeared, and we are concerned about that.  But we do observe that many of the pigeons within a block radius of our home have plumage very similar to his.

[LAUGHTER]

JR: Ok, so I didn't see the social lives of birds in New York City coming, but that is quite a closer.  Because this is our First Conversation series, we actually have some standard questions we ask our guests at the end.  So, what is the first thing you do in the morning?

CN: Work.

JR: Check Craigslist?

CN: I am retired, but I have a huge amount of email messages.  I roll out of bed, and I have a set up adjacent to the bed.  And I feel much better.

JR: Understood.  What was your first concert?

CN: Aside from high-school choir and stuff, probably something where I went to school, because I had delusions, pretensions, of being good at classical music.  As it turns out, I don't like classical music all that much.

JR: So, what is a bit of advice you give to someone on the first day of a brand-new job?

CN: Nowadays what I would tell people is pick your fights carefully and realize that no good deed goes unpunished.  I don't want to generalize quite that broadly, but that lesson, if I had learned it 20 years ago, would have kept me out of some kinds of trouble.

JR: Alright, because this gathering celebrates those who paved the way for others, I like to close by asking a question. Can you tell us about a mentor or mentors or somebody who influence your work and your professional life?

CN: There is this guy, Leonard Cohen.

JR: I feel like I should say hallelujah.

CN: Canadian, musician and poet who has defined my mission statement. So, he is actually the guy who's defined it all. We give credit to Mr. and Mrs. Levin, my high school History and Civics teacher.

JR: What is it about Leonard Cohen?

CN: He gave me a reliable and evidence-based spiritual connection.

JR: That can't get better than that from listening to some music. Before we go, where can folks follow you to keep up to date with what you are doing?

CN: CraigNewmarkphilanthropies.org, or craigNewmark.org for short.

JR: Thank you for being here and thank you for the work you do and thank you for listening. Take care.

CN: Hey, a nerd's got to do what a nerd's got to do.

JR: Final thoughts, love it.  Thank you so much.

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